Bridging the divide between athletics and aesthetics on National Radio, Peter Biggs with Chris Laidlaw, Mark Chrysel, and John McBeth talks arty rugby, the Trekka and other far ranging subjects.

Presenter: Well talking of selectors, let's not just confine this to the All Blacks. Peter, you have picked, you've been messing about with teams haven't you into the arts and you've picked an all stars -
Bridging the divide between athletics and aesthetics on National Radio, Peter Biggs with Chris Laidlaw, Mark Chrysel, and John McBeth talks arty rugby, the Trekka and other far ranging subjects.

Presenter: Well talking of selectors, let's not just confine this to the All Blacks. Peter, you have picked, you've been messing about with teams haven't you into the arts and you've picked an all stars -
Biggs: At a classy function at Sean Plunket's house last night, Kate Mead and I and a number of others said -

Presenter: A dry function of course -
Biggs: of course, a dry dark one.

Chrysel: Before or after the rugby?

Biggs: Before, oh yes we were bridging the aesthetics and the athletics -

Mcbeth: Comparing old spikes.

Biggs: That's right, telling lots of lies.

Mcbeth: Here come various artists wearing spikes.

Biggs: Your past life gets so much better as you get older, the more stories you hear.

Presenter: Well it improves, yes, lots.

Chrysel: I've got this theory, you see, I'm just talking from my own gender which is being a chap which is chaps don't compete against other chaps, they compete against a younger version of themselves, that's the problem. Every time I go out for a run I think I can do it faster than I was doing it 10 years ago.

Biggs: Okay well I'm going to offend every person in the arts sectors in this country, but I thought - Kate Mead and I and others said well let's try and bridge this sport arts thing, it's all the same really, it's all wonderful creativity, intelligence -

Presenter: And Sean Plunket is initially responsible for this so he can get the blame.

Biggs: Oh absolutely, yes Plunket will wear anything. So, yes, I've got some suggestions on a Manager. Well the first thing is how do you choose? I mean this country's so rich in imaginative and creative talent, not just in the arts -

Presenter: Here's the excuses coming.

Chrysel: How about a poll.

Biggs: A poll, we could have a poll.

Presenter: They've done one.

Biggs: Let me go - well I put it you want somebody classy, professional, consistent but also with the ability to break a game open. Oh sorry John, yes I thought of you immediately but we had to go pure arts people or people in the creative industry, so I put Sam Neill at fullback. Two superstars on the wings, I mean you've got your two Jonah Lomu's I think and how wonderful it would be to have people of that calibre on both wings so I put Peter Jackson and Kiri Te Kanawa on the wings - absolute superstars. I wanted a muscular, brilliant, inspirational centre, Michael Parmenter stood out for me; at second five I wanted somebody instinctive, marvellous vision, great skills so I went for Che Fu. I bracketed two people at first five eighth, the kind of Brumbie - what's his name, I've forgotten his name - the Larkham of the arts world in New Zealand I think is Bill Manhire, this intelligent eye for an opportunity, still refuse to move dear old Bill, but if you want to change the pattern of the game, you want a sort of David Holwell/Riki Flutey combination, well I'd bring on Witi Ihimaera -

Presenter: You'd sub Witi on would you when things are going wrong?

Biggs: Oh absolutely but, you know, that would be a hard call. You'd put sort of Witi on to bring some flair and energy and unbounded brilliance and risk in the game. Halfback, you've got to have a great distributor, but who's the George Gregan of the New Zealand arts, Carla Van Zon, great distributor -

Presenter: Side steps.

Biggs: All of that kind of thing, absolutely hands on. Bracketed two people at number eight, I guess John Parker, you know the potter, focused, powerful, indomitable, indefatigable -

Mcbeth: Good hands.

Biggs: Good hands, thanks John - Ann Robinson, you know, a glass artist beautiful, beautiful, would be a beautiful player. And open side, Gareth Farr, rampaging, fast, sensationally constructive.

Chrysel: He's certainly open.

Biggs: Certainly open, yes, open to everything. Blindside flank I'd, look I'd call it Elrick Hooper day in day out, just stunningly, marvellously, theatrical as a previously artistic director for the court. Locks, two iconic people that would pull the whole team together - Ralph Hotere and Dame Malvina Major.

Presenter: Good, what a combination -

Biggs: Oh yeah, oh yeah, absolutely brilliant. And I picked, this is controversial, an all literature front row, an all literature front row. There'll be massive thingy, the polls will go mad here. It's radical but an all literature front row. Owen Marshall -

Presenter: Owen would be chuffed (indistinct due to overtalking).

Biggs: I don't know, I think he'd be interchangeable, he's a South Island rock that guy. Maurice Gee, Owen and Maurice as props, and Elizabeth Knox as hooker.

And off the bench, all your impact players, Jonathan Lemalu, Esther Woollaston - look if you want to change the dynamics of the game, brilliant quilter. On board they can go traditional or modern. Grant Tilly, Simon Prast, favourite of mine, Mike - (indistinct due to overtalking)

Presenter: Grant Tilly would be very good wouldn't he?

Biggs; Yeah, Peter Robinson, John Drawbridge, and we're going to talk about Lloyd Jones in those and Lloyd you're in there.

Presenter: Lloyd's in there as an impact, all purpose -
Biggs: Absolutely, bring him on at any time of the game.

Presenter: He could play in any position really, couldn't he?

Biggs: Yeah, and I think the selectors and management have to include people like Murray Shaw, Elizabeth Ellis, Chairman of the Arts Board. So there you go.

Presenter: Who would the coach be? Who do you think the coach would be?

Biggs: That's a hard, hard one.

Presenter: Colin McCahon?

Biggs: Colin could speak from the grave.

Presenter: From on high?

Biggs: Yeah, from on high.

Presenter: Well that's just sometimes more effective than natural coaching -

Chrysel: That would give somebody with, you know, be able to cut through, to bring them, give the players a team and that would have to be Dame Cheryl Southeran.

Mcbeth: Yes there's a tough.

Presenter: Actually I'd play her, I don't think I'd put her on the sideline.

Mcbeth: What about Malvina as a lock, you know, that grip in the scrums, how would -

Biggs: Yes there might be issues there.

Presenter: Well that's very interesting and that team will be published and no doubt it will appear in some form or another.

Biggs: You could probably have the Finn brothers as joint coaches I think, that would be quite good.

Presenter: What a host we've got, what a host we've got. Let's come back to Lloyd Jones, because the Book of Fame, that magnificent - I think it's one of the best things I've ever read, has its world premier at Wellington's Downstage Theatre as a play on the 9th and everyone's going to go and see it and it's going to go on tour. And what a tribute to him, what a tribute.

Biggs: Absolutely, and well deserved. Well deserved. I think it's one of the iconic pieces of literature and hopefully theatre because, I mean, my gig on it has been that it's not a book about rugby, it's a book about our true identity as a people and that we are brilliantly imaginative and internationally achieving. And whether that's rugby or the arts or anything, motor sport, or academia or science, that's us as a people and so I've been preaching this thing that - the Gallipoli myth kind of thing, tenacity, grim endurance, wonderful qualities but has to fade into the background and that's why I do support the call for our Anzac day to be August the 8th when the Wellingtons took Chunuk Bair, it was a Kiwi that said to the Brits no way, we are not going to take Chunuk Bair in daylight, old Malone, we're going to do it our way, at our time, and they did it. And that's us to the world.

Presenter: It was the first time we really said No.

Biggs: Absolutely and I think Lloyd has done a similar thing, to say this is who we are. On April 25th we went in with everybody else. That's not who we are. We do brilliant, different, innovative, exciting things.

Chrysel: I'm interested, Peter, do you think that for a long time, and I know it's been a problem for the arts world that they feel they're ignored over sport, do you think we're getting closer to being able to be able to enjoy both sport and arts at the same time because they have been exclusive.

Biggs: Yeah I do. I do, look I've said this before, I look at the sevens as an arts event as much as a sports event. People sing, they dance, there's theatre, they dress up, they text each other.

Presenter: And they don't watch the game.

Biggs: Yeah, they now and then watch the game but they fade in, fade out of these two dimensions to what is a Kiwi's life. You know, 98 per cent of New Zealander's participate in some form of the arts and they love sport as well. And I think there is an artificial construct -

Presenter: Well there has been and it's been a negative one for a long time and people are realising now that they are - they're both, they're all part of interchangeable parts of our culture, our culture is all of these -

Biggs: It's kind of like that strange thing, like when I went through school, that you either did professional or general and if you're bright you did sort of languages and literature and all that sort of thing and if you were dumb you kind of did commercial practice and tech drawing and that kind of thing.

Presenter: Physical education, yeah.

Biggs: Now I think we've grown up and are looking at it much more widely and more healthily.

Mcbeth: I think so, yeah. And we do get opera singers singing the national anthem at our sports events.

Biggs: And Jeff Wilson, he was a great winger, I love that man, and very intelligent, brilliant sports player, but also studying art history.

Presenter: It's happening, we're dragging sport back from the brink in some respects, I think, back into the mainstream of culture and art.

Mcbeth: Yes and it's time isn't it. I recall I had to give an acceptance speech I think for winning a radio sports award and I said I've been overseas and the All Blacks have such great mana overseas and the best publicity New Zealand can get is when the All Blacks are over there. I said people don't realise this. Well immediately I think it was Helen Young got up afterwards and said look what about our artists, what about Dame Kiri Te Kanawa. And we have tended to be very divided haven't we, sport, culture, arts, whatever it may be and to get them together is a big job. But I agree, I think we're getting somewhere towards it.

Chrysel: Well the rugby world is very narrow too. I mean in Germany or most of Europe, outside of France, they wouldn't really know too much about the All Blacks.

Presenter: In Venice, however, they will know a little bit about our culture very shortly because of the Biennale there we have the Trekka and the Moniac Ensemble as it were.

Biggs: It's very exciting.

Presenter: New Zealand's own Skoda.

Biggs: Yeah well it was.

Presenter: Going back to Europe to be put on display with a water driven computer, which is kind of out of style.

Biggs: Well you know you choose someone like Michael Stevenson and you get something brilliantly imaginative like this. I mean last time we were in Venice with Peter Robinson and Jackie Fraser we took the place by storm and we took the place by storm because of the art but also because of the brilliant performance of the Ngai Tahu people there. And we, Creative New Zealand, turned over the selection of the artist to an independent panel that came up with Michael Stevenson and he chose an installation based around first of all the Trekka, which is our only indigenous car.

Presenter: For people who don't know, the Trekka is a car with a Skoda engine and chassis imported and a rather cumbersome looking, curious - still going, who's seen a Trekker lately? Never mind, that's right, it's an icon. And there's something, there's a certain amount of irony in this.

Biggs: Yeah it's wonderful, yeah, I think, you know, I can't remember it is the, it's about us, it's the go anywhere kind of vehicle that was constructed. And then the Moniac, which again is New Zealanders leading the world with this forerunner of the computer and how an economy works.

Presenter: A water drive, analogue computer, a hydraulic model of a national economy. Answer to that if you can.

Biggs: And it's going to be, I'm not sure of the date of the church, but it's going to be in the middle of Venice in a church and it's going to be, again this is so great about us, it's going to be entirely different to anything the world's ever seen before.

Presenter: Exactly. Mark, you're hoping to get over there aren't you? There's no sars in Venice you know.

Chrysel: No. I was just thinking the Moniac would be a great thing for saving power, water driven, run the country on that?

Presenter: On that note, on that note I think we'd better leave it. Thanks to my three guests this morning - Mark Chrysel, Peter Biggs and John McBeth.

Thanks to National Radio for letting us run this transcript.

**************************************
This material is copyright to Radio New Zealand Ltd and may not be reproduced in any form without permission. Copies of this and other items may be purchased from Replay Radio, either email to replayradio@radionz.co.nz or call 0800 REPLAY (737 529)
*****************************************