Courtesy of National Radio 'Nine To Noon' Thursday 10 July 2003

Presenter (Linda Clark): There are some perks in my job and one of them is that yesterday I was given a sneak preview of an exhibition which opens this weekend at the City Gallery here in Wellington. It is the first comprehensive exhibition of the work of Shane Cotton. Courtesy of National Radio 'Nine To Noon' Thursday 10 July 2003

Presenter (Linda Clark): There are some perks in my job and one of them is that yesterday I was given a sneak preview of an exhibition which opens this weekend at the City Gallery here in Wellington. It is the first comprehensive exhibition of the work of Shane Cotton.Shane Cotton is widely regarded as one of this country's most significant contemporary painters. He's still in his 30's. His work is eagerly snapped up. A lot of it now is painted on commission. He explores themes of biculturalism and national identity and spirituality and critics often draw a connection between him and McCahon. Shane Cotton very rarely talks about his work but this morning he joins me in the studio. Good morning to you.

Shane Cotton (artist): Hi, Linda.

Presenter: The new works in this exhibition, there are some five new works here?

Cotton: Seven.

Presenter: Seven, and some of these I understand you finished just a few days ago?

Cotton: Varnished, yes.

Presenter: Do you like that kind of deadline pressure?

Cotton: No (laughter). They.. Two weeks prior to the finishing of them a couple of days ago I was kind of on track but in terms of the painting process then things happened, didn't go my way which meant I had to rethink some of the images and so it put me two weeks behind so..

Presenter: Where.. What sort of things didn't go your way?

Cotton: Just the introduction of an image in a certain place.

Presenter: So you put it there, you look at it and think nah?

Cotton: No, that's right.

Presenter: And then you start again?

Cotton: Well, rub it out.

Presenter: Except you don't rub it, do you, you paint over it?

Cotton: Yeah, paint over it.

Presenter: Does that happen very often?

Cotton: In terms of these new works, what tended to happen was that I would have a very clear idea about the images I was using in terms of their composition. I would go straight into painting those images and at some point they were either going to work or they weren't going to work and it's at that point that you then make the change.

Presenter: These new works are very different from a lot of your earlier work and I think some people will be a bit shocked by them. Was that your intention?

Cotton: No, it wasn't really the intention to shock people. I suppose in a way what interests me is the sort of.. The compression of spiritual space. I've been working with ideas and concepts related to sort of Maori cosmology and overlapping that with Christian belief, spirituality, and looking at how if we took aspects of those things from these different realms, we put them into the same bag and we juggle them up, what would be the outcome or the fallout.

Presenter: Well, if you go to the Shane Cotton exhibition, one of the paintings that you will see, it's one of the new works, is.. Because these new works are playing with images of.. There's bulls-eyes, there's birds and there's preserved Maori heads. And one of the paintings, one of the very strong paintings that you've done is a series of Maori heads, preserved Maori heads, moko mokai in the bulls-eye and then in the other bulls-eye there's the face of Jesus Christ. That's that kind of putting it all together is it?

Cotton: Yeah, I think the use of the moko mokai has really just come out of.. It was really just out of an interest and research of looking at Maori image and I sort of.. The use of the moko mokai has really just come about accidentally. It wasn't an image I went to.. It wasn't an image that I seeked [sic] to actually to bring to the paintings, it was just something I sort of accidentally happened upon.

Presenter: It could be very controversial? You know that people will find that image very offensive?

Cotton: They are controversial. The association of the head in terms of tapu, the readings of the head, the disconnection of the head to the body, there's a lot of issues related to those images. They have their own history. It's interesting.. What's interesting..

Presenter: Well, and even in your paintings..

Cotton: For me is the way that in the use of that image, the way that the image becomes transformed just through the use of paint and colour and for me, I mean the idea of transformation is also sort of a key concept in the work, so that they become not moko mokai but that they become sort of tuhituhi [phons] or the marked head. These aren't things which are locked away down in the sort of the cupboards of Te Papa but brought to life again in a very different context.

Presenter: But they're still someone's ancestor?

Cotton: Yes they are - but for a large part they're anonymous as well and that's the sad thing about them.

Presenter: It's sad and it's also the thing over which there's been so much dispute, isn't there, because.. I mean one of the reasons they're locked in a vault at Te Papa and not put on display is that many Maori feel..

Cotton: Well, they shouldn't be put on display, they should be..

Presenter: But you've just.. You're displaying one of them?

Cotton: I'm not displaying them.. I mean they're not you see, I don't see them as moko mokai any more. I see them as images that had their origin from that point but they've been transformed into something else.

Presenter: Do you think a Pakeha artist could have done that?

Cotton: I think a Pakeha artist has already done work along those lines but from a very Pakeha perspective.

Presenter: Give me an example?

Cotton: I can't remember her name but there was a show in Auckland earlier in the year where she worked with sculptures, very sort of Pakeha heads that looked like moko mokai that made a real impression or certainly had a reaction from the audience.

Presenter: Let's talk about your identity. You're always identified you know, by the critics and everybody else, as a Maori artist.

Cotton: Yep.

Presenter: Do you see yourself as a Maori artist or an artist?

Cotton: No, I'm a Maori artist and the reason I say that is because I am Maori by birth, right. And you know, I have whakapapa.

Presenter: But then you could be an artist who is Maori as opposed to a Maori artist.

Cotton: Yeah, I could be.

Presenter: Do you know the difference?

Cotton: Yeah, I know, I know there is a difference but it's very clear for me you know, that definition. I don't have a problem with it. There are some artists that take issue with it.

Presenter: I'm not thinking you would have a problem with it. I think it probably influences your work though, doesn't it? I mean your work has become progressively more politically Maori?

Cotton: It's always been politically Maori actually, I think.

Presenter: Do you think you just disguised it more?

Cotton: Well, I think at the point that I was starting to get some recognition, mainstream recognition, I wanted to push the issue or the notion that contemporary Maori art was very much a force within the New Zealand arts scene and that the people that were involved within that practice were saying very, very different things than sort of European Pakeha artists. And that's why I wanted the label attached to it, to bring recognition to the notion of contemporary Maori art so that we could actually discuss it.

Presenter: When did you become politicised?

Cotton: I think from a very early age actually.

Presenter: Because you grew up in Upper Hutt and was the family political?

Cotton: No, No.. Well, not really. No, not really but you know, if you went out to parties and places there was always the sense that we were different to most of the people that were around us.

Presenter: Why, because the others were white?

Cotton: Yeah, yeah.

Presenter: And that.. Yeah, well that would make you political I guess.

Cotton: It does, it does. You know, and that's just a matter of fact, that's just the way things are or the way things were.

Presenter: Yeah, carry on?

Cotton: No, so I'm just saying that context and those conditions sort of shape the way you see yourself within general society and of course all my friends were Maori - and then you went and you played league and you did all those things that Maori kids did. Our sense or our knowledge of culture or our knowledge of language, Maori, was not strong at all but we knew that we did have this one thing in common and it was the colour of our skin.

Presenter: So as an adult you learnt te reo?

Cotton: I'm still learning.

Presenter: Well, there's a lot of te reo in your work?

Cotton: Yeah, a lot of scripture translation.

Presenter: Which you clearly understand and which means something to you?

Cotton: I think that's.. Well, one of the things I find interesting in terms of learning the language is the way meanings from one language are translated into another..

Presenter: And twisted?

Cotton: And do they carry those same meanings. I don't think they do necessarily carry the same meanings, they actually mean different things and I'm very sort of interested in that. Again it's that sort of transformation, the way something moves from one context to the next.

Presenter: That idea is.. if you're right, if you use a word and I use the same word but we think slightly differently about what it is that we're saying, then it means that cross-cultural communication is always going to be difficult, isn't it?

Cotton: Yeah, that's right.

Presenter: There's always going to be a tension.

Cotton: Yeah, that's right, yeah. It's always..

Presenter: We'll never agree what Clause 2 of the Treaty means.

Cotton: It always has to be mediated and negotiated.

Presenter: Yeah, but your mediator is who? Because they come to it with a cultural understanding as well.

Cotton: Well, you have to. You've got to sit at the table I think, and that's actually what happens, that's what Maori do. They discuss, they argue, they fight, you know, about what they believe is right and then at some point you know, you sort of push out the other end and you get some kind of consensus but it's an ongoing process, it's not formulaic and it's never static.

Presenter: And is your perception that Pakeha do it differently?

Cotton: Very differently.

Presenter: So how would you summarise how Pakeha come to a decision?

Cotton: Well I mean, I can't.. Those things obviously happen for Pakeha society you know, I don't like to make generalisations here but I think Pakeha have a problem with Maori because they always see Maori as kind of argumentative or trying to..

Presenter: Not being able to agree?

Cotton: Not being able to agree but it's actually..

Presenter: Yeah, disputes lasting a very long time?

Cotton: It's inalienable, it's fluid. You know, it's very much in the present and I think European society tends to think, once something is in place, that's how we have to go with it but you know, it doesn't work like that does it really.

Presenter: When you use text in your work, a lot of people who admire and even buy your paintings don't understand the text. Does that dilute the work? Do I need to understand the words to like your paintings, to understand your paintings?

Cotton: No you don't, you don't. You just need to read I suppose.. I mean because I don't understand a lot of it but what I do understand -

Presenter: The secret's out now!

Cotton: But actually what.. Well, actually I do understand it, I but it's really the use of the text in paint that forms a pattern, patterns, lines of pattern that give structure to the painting so in a sense it's almost like a background. It's a template upon which everything else floats around, the use of the text.

Presenter: So it could be equally the lines in a tukituki [sic] panel?

Cotton: Exactly. That's right, that's right, because..

Presenter: And some of them look like that actually?

Cotton: Yep. I've talked to people about that and I mean, that's one of the things that I do with the works is that, because I'm interested in pattern, carving, that in a sense I replace the carved pattern with the text pattern and if you can translate that and read it, that's a bonus. If you can't, you can just still admire it in terms of the aesthetic.

Presenter: But the text you're drawing upon is religious text always?

Cotton: Yeah, mostly, yeah.

Presenter: There's a lot of religious imagery in your work too, the recurring Jesus figure?

Cotton: Yep.

Presenter: Are you religious?

Cotton: No.

Presenter: So why Jesus?

Cotton: Am I religious? Well, I can't say flat out no. Once I..

Presenter: You want to be one of these people that believes you know, just at death's door, you're just keeping the options open?

Cotton: Most probably!

Presenter: Well, everyone does that.

Cotton: You never know who you're going to meet on the other side, do you?

Presenter: That's right, you're not alone. But interesting that you would find so much in the imagery.

Cotton: Because where I come from, where my family comes from which is Ngawha, the Central Bay of Islands, the Church of England, Christianity is very much the imagery that has actually been left or deposited. All the very traditional Maori iconography in terms of style and pattern doesn't exist in many of the houses, in many of the places up there so it's a sort of complete conceptual shift in terms of belief and that's actually why I keep coming back to it in a sense because that is. That is the face of the identity to a large extent. I'm not saying in every extent.

Presenter: But if you go back to what you were saying a little earlier, that Maori and Pakeha can look at the same thing, can look at the same words or use the same words and mean different things, do Maori and Pakeha look at the same religious imagery and see different things?

Cotton: I think they do, mmm. I mean when I make the works I'm really not conscious of the audience. I'm actually trying to sort something out in my own head.

Presenter: How do you sell them then?

Cotton: Well, that's what you have dealers for (laughter).

Presenter: Yeah I know, but if you're not thinking about the audience, if you're doing it to get something out of your own head, I mean then you give it to the dealer, it's sold, you make money, that's nice but I mean don't you have..

Cotton: Well, it's not really.. It's not that simple but..

Presenter: Do you have any grief about the paintings going?

Cotton: Oh yeah, no, you do. You get very attached to them because you're living with them. You know, they're in your head all the time. You're dreaming about them. You know, you sort of.. But you know, I don't really think about the audience. I'm interested in trying to bring the audience along with me and that's what's great about this show, is that the audience, in terms of this selected survey, that the audience would get some sense of a continuum. Because even for me just going through the spaces the last couple of days it's been sort of an interesting journey revisiting a lot of the imagery and I can see so many connections between things I'd actually completely forgotten about.

Presenter: So you're not necessarily aware of the progression as you go?

Cotton: Well, you kind of are. I mean but you're more living in the moment, you know, and sometimes new ideas or concepts come into play and then you see something you did sort of five years ago and you're actually sort of touching on the same thing but you just. You're revisiting it in a totally different way and that's kind of nice because it means it's anchored in your head. There's something there which is kind of just chipping away at you.

Presenter: So when you're painting do you have something specific you want to say?

Cotton: My paintings are really about questions. They're about questions about things, they're just asking questions in a way.

Presenter: So then when you read the critics or you saunter up quietly behind people looking at your work and they're saying you know, in those lovely arty ways that they say oh, see this, it's got all the texture and the meaning and this is Jesus and this is something else, do you think yeah, that was what it was all about, or..

Cotton: Well, they're all triggers aren't they? They're triggers and..

Presenter: So it doesn't matter to you that they might think the painting is about something else?

Cotton: Well, if it's an image of Jesus it's obviously going to have some kind of spiritual sort of platform that it's touching on but it's not necessarily a homage to Jesus, it's not necessarily a degradation of the image. But you know, the critic thing, it's very much just one opinion, you know, and critics are critics. They have very sort of flowery ways of..

Presenter: Well, you should love them. They give you good reviews just about every time?

Cotton: Oh yeah, I get good.. You know.

Presenter: Have you analysed your popularity?

Cotton: Nope. Not really, no.

Presenter: So you don't know what is that makes your works speak to so many people that they are prepared to pay such a lot of money for them?

Cotton: Well I think.. I mean it's not.. I think that I most probably share a kind of.. a very similar sort of visual view to a lot of other people in New Zealand.

Presenter: No!

Cotton: No?

Presenter: No.

Cotton: Oh.

Presenter: I mean a lot of your works are quite challenging visually. They include sort of gang motifs, they include sort of tattoo imagery, they have a lot of traditional Maori motifs that the people who buy your painting, they don't have.. They don't live with those motifs normally, they wouldn't have a gang patch in their house normally?

Cotton: Yeah, ok but you know, you've got to qualify it really. It's not exactly a gang patch, it has the kind of I suppose.. It takes the sort of the impression of a patch.

Presenter: It has the power of a gang patch though, doesn't it?

Cotton: Yeah, it's confrontational in that sense but then you know, perhaps people want to sort of buy into what the work is actually saying in some way. Perhaps they do want to have some kind of empathy with it, that they do empathise with that type of imagery and that painting allows them to actually do that. I don't know. I've never really sat down and spoken to a.. or I have sat down with a couple of collectors and talked about things like that but not to a great deal.

Presenter: Would you rather not?

Cotton: Oh, it doesn't really worry me.

Presenter: You don't paint for them?

Cotton: Well no, I don't.

Presenter: So what do you get out of the painting?

Cotton: I like the process. I like the process of actually.. The physicality of it.

Presenter: How do you paint?

Cotton: With a brush! (laughter)

Presenter: Oh yeah, even I can work that out, but do you paint like.. Do you need.. I mean I had Philip Trustam [phon] on the show a couple of weeks ago and he likes to paint in isolation, only on his own, doesn't like anybody else there and he likes music full blast.

Cotton: Yeah, I like the music full blast too.

Presenter: So what do you play while you're painting?

Cotton: I can listen to anything from Bob Marley to Snoop Dog. I just like a variety.. Or I can listen to some very soothing waiata but I always have music going. I don't listen to the radio very much actually.

Presenter: That's all right, you're forgiven. Do you.. We don't like to think of ourselves as the station to paint by I don't suppose but do you.. Do you like to be undisturbed?

Cotton: Yep. I think you sort of.. You get yourself in a head space and you get on a roll and it's a nice place to be but it's very hard when.. It's very hard when people come into the studio sometimes when you're making stuff because in a way it's a very kind of.. It's a very sort of personal thing that you're doing because when you're going through the process you're not actually sure about it yourself and so sometimes you don't really want people to see it, you know. It's kind of it's a wee bit sort of.. There's too much exposure involved in it.

Presenter: The whole thing is about exposure though, isn't it?

Cotton: Yeah, when.. At the appropriate time, at the appropriate time.

Presenter: So who do you let in early?

Cotton: Only good friends and people who have.. Who share sort of I suppose similar interests in terms of art practice.

Presenter: Do you need looking after when you're painting? I mean are you quite vulnerable?

Cotton: I need to go to the bar once a week most probably and have a beer, yeah. That's about it.

Presenter: I think quite the answer I expected I suppose. I mean how do you do this with a young family? Is it a no-go zone?

Cotton: Well, my partner, my wife, is a very, very good mother and she's very, very supportive and she's done a huge amount of work on the show and we work as a partnership but she sort of is very, very supportive and just allows me to be able to..

Presenter: So she creates the space for you to paint?

Cotton: She creates a very big space for me, yeah.

Presenter: Because I imagine it's quite demanding living with a painter?

Cotton: Yeah, I mean it can be. You know, you get stroppy with things and that, yeah you do. You get sort of uptight about certain things.

Presenter: So do you feel driven?

Cotton: I think I am a wee bit, yeah.

Presenter: I mean could you stop painting now and do something else?

Cotton: I don't think so. I've thought about it.

Presenter: Really? Why?

Cotton: I'm not really sure why actually. I have.. I do think about it sometimes.

Presenter: So when you're thinking about it, is that driven by frustration?

Cotton: Sometimes it just all gets a wee bit out of hand, there's so many.. There's.. You know, there's certain perceptions.. There are always people who are sort of you know, on your case about certain things and it just gets a wee bit.. And at that point that you sort of.. You want to sort of take a back seat.

Presenter: Well, this is the price of success. I mean all painters want to be successful but if you're a successful painter and as I said at the outset, you're painting a lot of work now on commission, aren't you?

Cotton: Not a lot but yes, some.

Presenter: Some. And so on the one hand you've got.. The expectations of your work get greater and greater and the more people collect it, the more they want the next work by Shane Cotton to be fantastic because that lifts the price of their collection and.. Do you feel that pressure?

Cotton: I don't actually sort of..

Presenter: Do you feel that pressure?

Cotton: No, I don't feel that pressure, it's not that pressure. I think it's kind of like.. It's really sort of.. No, that sort of thing doesn't worry me. I mean I'm always just.. You're always going to paint what you want to paint. You know, you're not going to be driven by what people want. I mean I think that's what's interesting looking at the show, is that there are very.. In the three spaces of the show there are very different movements in the work and that's really just been driven by where the work's taken me in terms of its progression.

Presenter: Well your new work..

Cotton: It's not really about sort of you know, what collectors want or the audience or anything like that.

Presenter: Your new work is much more contemporary looking. I mean there's sort of references to computer games and technology and fast cars?

Cotton: Yeah.

Presenter: So what.. Why those?

Cotton: Well, I think I just wanted to sort of experiment with different types of image. You know, I wanted to sort of see.. I mean let's face it, I've been very sort of.. My palette over the last couple of years has been fairly limited and I just..

Presenter: Kind of brown, red, white black?

Cotton: mmm, and I just wanted to sort of try experimenting with a different palette in terms of the image.

Presenter: Do you like colour?

Cotton: Yeah, I do, yeah, yeah.

Presenter: So when you.. I mean some of the.. Probably for me the most striking moko mokai painting is the one which is the very vivid blue. It's an extremely powerful painting. Did you.. How did you decide on the blue? I mean for someone who doesn't.. Who hasn't used colour traditionally?

Cotton: Well, if you look at the other side, Christ walking on water and underneath it there's a reference to a Taniwha from that particular lake and so I just thought naturally it's got to be blue, blue head, so.. But it's a really strong.. Like you say, it's a very, very vivid blue. It's a blue that you're attracted to, you know. Well, I am anyway.

Presenter: Even though the image is so alienating?

Cotton: Yeah. Well, it just depends. I mean I've got so.. I'm so familiar with them.. I'm very familiar with those images now that they don't act as kind of.. They're not aggressive, they don't push me away, they actually draw me in.

Presenter: so what's next?

Cotton: In terms of the work or in terms of shows?

Cotton: Well, is there a distinction? What's.. ..[indistinct] another exhibition or another show?

Cotton: No, I have got a.. I've got some things that.. Some shows at the end of the year and I've started some work for those. I actually..

Presenter: Are they here in New Zealand or Australia?

Cotton: One is in Australia in September, it's about space. And I have two.. One show in Auckland at Gow Langsford and I think I might be having a show in Christchurch but.. But as I said, I've already started some new work and I'm really interested in sort of pushing the kind of.. Working on a very larger scale and using the same images but really sort of pressing I suppose, where the recognition of the image becomes pattern so I want the works to be very sort of colour and pattern orientated or directed so that the.. You get a sense of the image but you're lost amongst other things so I just.. Yeah. It's almost.. I think it's lent itself a wee bit to sort of installational type sort of perhaps paintings.

Presenter: That is exciting. You've got a lot of painting to do, haven't you?

Cotton: Yeah, well I don't really know how it's going to work but that's kind of what I'm thinking at the moment.

Presenter: Do you see yourself in the line of New Zealand painters, the sort of journey of New Zealand painting because I mean the works that are on show in this exhibition you can.. There are kind of homages or touches of McCahon and Gordon Walters and Hotere. Do you see yourself as part of that journey?

Cotton: Um.. Um.. I don't.. Not really. Well I

Presenter: Are you just saying that out of modesty?

Cotton: Well, most probably a wee bit. I mean you sort of I suppose, you know.. I mean I think there's that tendency to rush someone into the history context.

Presenter: Well I mean you heard it, people compare you to McCahon, say you're this generation's McCahon.

Cotton: Yeah. No, I don't.. That doesn't sit comfortably with me at all.

Presenter: Well, how could it?

Cotton: Yeah. I'm actually not a very big.. I don't actually know his work that well to be honest. I've never really studied it, I've never really read it. He doesn't..

Presenter: So who does it for you?

Cotton: Well, obviously Ralph. I'm a very big fan of Ralph's work and I have.. You know, for me he's the senior artist for me and I do have one of Ralph's work. It's a concentric circle piece and it was painted in 1969 and it's one of my prized possessions.

Presenter: Does he have one of yours?

Cotton: No, I doubt it (laughter). I doubt it.

Presenter: Oh Shane, it's only a matter of time I'm sure. It's been a delight talking to you and I wish you well with the exhibition. I think that they'll be pouring through, don't you?

Cotton: I don't know. Have to wait and see.

Presenter: Oh modesty, for goodness sake.

Cotton: Have to wait and see.

Presenter: Nice having you on the programme, Shane Cotton.

These excerpts are from a National Radio programme supplied by Replay Radio, RNZ Ltd. If you would like to order a copy of this programme, please call 0800 REPLAY (737 529).

Maori Language Week Events at City Gallery Wellington

Currently showing at City Gallery Wellington is the major exhibition, Shane Cotton: Survey 1993 – 2003. In the past ten years Shane Cotton (Ngati Rangi, Ngati Hine, Te Uri Taniwha) has emerged as a major figure in contemporary New Zealand art. His work deals with relationships between Maori and Pakeha – contemporary and historical issues of biculturalism on personal, political and social levels.

City Gallery celebrates Maori Language Week and Shane Cotton: Survey 1993–2003 with performance, films, readings and exhibition tours.

Exhibition entry and all events are FREE.

City Gallery is open 10am-5pm daily.

Nau Mai, Haere Mai - See you all there!

Saturday 2 August
11am & 2pm Te Reo Maori Short Film Programme in partnership with the New Zealand Film Commission

Te Po Urirui (The Enveloping Night), 2001, Writer/Director Toby Mills, Producer Norman Elder, 13 minutes

Te Ao Kapurangi (Warrior Woman), 2001, Writer/Director Tama Poata, Producer Robin Murphy, 9 minutes

Mananui, 1995, Writer/Director Poata Eruera, Co-Producer James Wallace and Liz DiFiore, 15 minutes

All films are in Te Reo with English subtitles

3pm Mauri To – Everlasting Force CD launch free public concert

Toni Huata celebrates the launch of her new CD with guests Te Kura Kaupapa Maori o Ngati Kahungunu Ki Heretaunga and Turakina Maori Girls College. The performance features a fashion show with the designs of Suzanne Tamaki, Tutina Pasene, Tribal Fibres, Lisa McKendry and Kaakahu Korowai.

4pm Bi-lingual tour of Shane Cotton: Survey 1993–2003

Join our tour guides for a closer look at the work of one of New Zealand's leading contemporary Maori artists. The tour will be conducted in English and Te Reo.

Sunday 3 August

2pm Play Reading - Te Kauta by Moira Wairama
In partnership with Taki Rua Theatre

3.30pm Te Reo Maori Short Film Programme
In partnership with the New Zealand Film Commission - a repeat screening of Saturday's film programme